From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Tue May 27 07:19:14 2025 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Bret Busby via Alpine-info) Date: Tue May 27 07:20:02 2025 Subject: [Alpine-info] Question about message composition - attaching files Message-ID: Hello. I have a memory that, in pine, a hotkey combination was available for attaching files to a message being composed, but, in this version of alpine that I have; 2.25, running on Linux Mint Mate 21.3 - a derivative of Ubuntu Linux 22.04, I cannot find how to attach a file to a message that I am composing. It is not in the menu at the bottom of the screen, and, previously, an option existed for displaying other available commands, and, that option is also not shown in the menu at the bottom of the compose message screen; and, I have also searched in the Help facility within alpine 2.25, and, cannot find how to attach a file to a message being composed. Has the ability to attach a file to a message being composed, been removed from alpine? .. Bret Busby Armadale West Australia (UTC+0800) .............. From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Tue May 27 07:27:35 2025 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Chime Hart via Alpine-info) Date: Tue May 27 07:27:41 2025 Subject: [Alpine-info] Question about message composition - attaching files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93a74cbc-5a29-fdf7-3b32-646a8cf5f2a8@hubert-humphrey.com> Hi Bret: Well, you can import the text of a message with control+r but as far as actually including a file, just go down to the field which says "attchmnt" type the full path of your file to include. I wish that would tab-complete. Hope that is what you are looking for. Chime From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Tue May 27 07:42:01 2025 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Bret Busby via Alpine-info) Date: Tue May 27 07:42:50 2025 Subject: [Alpine-info] Question about message composition - attaching files In-Reply-To: <93a74cbc-5a29-fdf7-3b32-646a8cf5f2a8@hubert-humphrey.com> References: <93a74cbc-5a29-fdf7-3b32-646a8cf5f2a8@hubert-humphrey.com> Message-ID: <77eb75b2-ccae-49e1-ad84-13e47c6ce7f0@busby.net> On 27/5/25 22:27, Chime Hart wrote: > Hi Bret: Well, you can import the text of a message with control+r but as far > as actually including a file, just go down to the field which says "attchmnt" > type the full path of your file to include. I wish that would tab-complete. > Hope that is what you are looking for. > Chime > Hello. I do not know whether it will get through,but I have attached a screenshot that shows the options that I have available in message composition, and, those options do not show what you mentioned. Also, I do not know who administers this list, but, in Thunderbird, which I am using to compose and send this message, for some mailing lists, I have the options "Reply to sender" and "Reply to List", but, on this list, I have only "Reply to sender" and "Reply to all", which causes two copies of a reply to be sent; one to the list, and, one to the sender of the message to which I am replying. Is it possible on this list, to get the "Reply to all", replaced with "Reply to list"? Thank you in anticipation. .. Bret Busby Armadale West Australia (UTC+0800) .............. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot at 2025-05-27 22-35-48.png Type: image/png Size: 67027 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Tue May 27 07:57:59 2025 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Bret Busby via Alpine-info) Date: Tue May 27 07:58:47 2025 Subject: [Alpine-info] Question about message composition - attaching files In-Reply-To: <77eb75b2-ccae-49e1-ad84-13e47c6ce7f0@busby.net> References: <93a74cbc-5a29-fdf7-3b32-646a8cf5f2a8@hubert-humphrey.com> <77eb75b2-ccae-49e1-ad84-13e47c6ce7f0@busby.net> Message-ID: <86bac20f-1023-456e-bb9d-e73e691d9e76@busby.net> On 27/5/25 22:42, Bret Busby via Alpine-info wrote: > On 27/5/25 22:27, Chime Hart wrote: >> Hi Bret: Well, you can import the text of a message with control+r >> but as far >> as actually including a file, just go down to the field which says >> "attchmnt" >> type the full path of your file to include. I wish that would >> tab-complete. >> Hope that is what you are looking for. >> Chime >> > Hello. > > I do not know whether it will get through,but I have attached a > screenshot that shows the options that I have available in message > composition, and, those options do not show what you mentioned. > > Also, I do not know who administers this list, but, in Thunderbird, > which I am using to compose and send this message, for some mailing > lists, I have the options "Reply to sender" and "Reply to List", but, on > this list, I have only "Reply to sender" and "Reply to all", which > causes two copies of a reply to be sent; one to the list, and, one to > the sender of the message to which I am replying. Is it possible on this > list, to get the "Reply to all", replaced with "Reply to list"? > > Thank you in anticipation. > > .. > Bret Busby > Armadale > West Australia > (UTC+0800) > .............. > > _______________________________________________ > Alpine-info mailing list > Alpine-info@u.washington.edu > http://mailman23.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info Okay. I have found two things. The first, is that the default is "Reply to list"; the above message had "Reply to All" as the option, instead, as the person to whose message, I was responding, had replied to both me and the list, causing the "Reply to all" to replace the "Reply to List" option. The second thing, is that the screen shot that I posted to the list, shows the as I remember it, to attach a file. But, what I see in the message that I am composing, to which, I want to attach two files, is different. In this message, I have posted a screenshot of the message that I have been composing, to show what I mean, that is the problem, that led me to believe that attachments could no longer be attached to messages being composed. The message that I am composing, (in which I have inserted many blank lines, to hide the body content), is a reply to a message received. So, the question remains - how do I attach files to that message? .. Bret Busby Armadale West Australia (UTC+0800) .............. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot at 2025-05-27 22-53-07.png Type: image/png Size: 60218 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Tue May 27 08:09:28 2025 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Bret Busby via Alpine-info) Date: Tue May 27 08:10:16 2025 Subject: [Alpine-info] Question about message composition - attaching files In-Reply-To: <86bac20f-1023-456e-bb9d-e73e691d9e76@busby.net> References: <93a74cbc-5a29-fdf7-3b32-646a8cf5f2a8@hubert-humphrey.com> <77eb75b2-ccae-49e1-ad84-13e47c6ce7f0@busby.net> <86bac20f-1023-456e-bb9d-e73e691d9e76@busby.net> Message-ID: On 27/5/25 22:57, Bret Busby via Alpine-info wrote: > On 27/5/25 22:42, Bret Busby via Alpine-info wrote: >> On 27/5/25 22:27, Chime Hart wrote: >>> Hi Bret: Well, you can import the text of a message with control+r >>> but as far >>> as actually including a file, just go down to the field which says >>> "attchmnt" >>> type the full path of your file to include. I wish that would >>> tab-complete. >>> Hope that is what you are looking for. >>> Chime >>> >> Hello. >> >> I do not know whether it will get through,but I have attached a >> screenshot that shows the options that I have available in message >> composition, and, those options do not show what you mentioned. >> >> Also, I do not know who administers this list, but, in Thunderbird, >> which I am using to compose and send this message, for some mailing >> lists, I have the options "Reply to sender" and "Reply to List", but, >> on this list, I have only "Reply to sender" and "Reply to all", which >> causes two copies of a reply to be sent; one to the list, and, one to >> the sender of the message to which I am replying. Is it possible on >> this list, to get the "Reply to all", replaced with "Reply to list"? >> >> Thank you in anticipation. >> >> .. >> Bret Busby >> Armadale >> West Australia >> (UTC+0800) >> .............. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alpine-info mailing list >> Alpine-info@u.washington.edu >> http://mailman23.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info > > > > Okay. > > I have found two things. > > The first, is that the default is "Reply to list"; the above message had > "Reply to All" as the option, instead, as the person to whose message, I > was responding, had replied to both me and the list, causing the "Reply > to all" to replace the "Reply to List" option. > > The second thing, is that the screen shot that I posted to the list, > shows the as I remember it, to attach a file. > > But, what I see in the message that I am composing, to which, I want to > attach two files, is different. > > In this message, I have posted a screenshot of the message that I have > been composing, to show what I mean, that is the problem, that led me to > believe that attachments could no longer be attached to messages being > composed. The message that I am composing, (in which I have inserted > many blank lines, to hide the body content), is a reply to a message > received. > > So, the question remains - how do I attach files to that message? > Okay - I figured it out after all of that - the cursor needs to be in the Attachment field of the header, then, appears as the option to attach a file (and not to justify). ... .. Bret Busby Armadale West Australia (UTC+0800) .............. From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Tue May 27 08:14:00 2025 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (via Alpine-info) Date: Tue May 27 08:14:33 2025 Subject: [Alpine-info] Question about message composition - attaching files In-Reply-To: <86bac20f-1023-456e-bb9d-e73e691d9e76@busby.net> References: <93a74cbc-5a29-fdf7-3b32-646a8cf5f2a8@hubert-humphrey.com> <77eb75b2-ccae-49e1-ad84-13e47c6ce7f0@busby.net> <86bac20f-1023-456e-bb9d-e73e691d9e76@busby.net> Message-ID: <9e7eb802-62e0-c2e0-aadc-179ebb100c20@apf.it> On Tue, 27 May 2025, Bret Busby via Alpine-info wrote: > So, the question remains - how do I attach files to that message? I can't understand your problem. May be my poor english ;-) As I also suggested you, CTRL+j and CTRL+t (when in message header), do what you want. If you want to attach multiple files at the same time, after CTRL+t you can press "l" to activate ListMode and then "x" to select files. Press Enter and you have all selected files as attachment. -- Saluti, Paolo ____________________________________________ From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Tue May 27 08:38:26 2025 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Bret Busby via Alpine-info) Date: Tue May 27 08:39:13 2025 Subject: [Alpine-info] Question about message composition - attaching files In-Reply-To: <9e7eb802-62e0-c2e0-aadc-179ebb100c20@apf.it> References: <93a74cbc-5a29-fdf7-3b32-646a8cf5f2a8@hubert-humphrey.com> <77eb75b2-ccae-49e1-ad84-13e47c6ce7f0@busby.net> <86bac20f-1023-456e-bb9d-e73e691d9e76@busby.net> <9e7eb802-62e0-c2e0-aadc-179ebb100c20@apf.it> Message-ID: On 27/5/25 23:14, via Alpine-info wrote: > On Tue, 27 May 2025, Bret Busby via Alpine-info wrote: > >> So, the question remains - how do I attach files to that message? > > I can't understand your problem. > May be my poor english ;-) > > As I also suggested you, CTRL+j and CTRL+t (when in message header), do > what you want. > If you want to attach multiple files at the same time, after CTRL+t you > can press "l" to activate ListMode and then "x" to select files. Press > Enter and you have all selected files as attachment. > > -- > Saluti, > ???????????????????????? Paolo No - it is not that your English is bad. I have not seen any evidence that your English is bad. I had believed, before this instance, that the would have appeared in the menu at the bottom of the screen, when composing the message, but, as you have said, the cursor needs to be in the header, for the to work (and, for the to be displayed in the menu at the bottom of the screen). Anyway, it is solved for the moment, and, the composed message is sent, with the attachments (but, unfortunately, without a return receipt request, which appears to be not an available option in alpine) Hopefully, I will remember how to enable the attaching of files, if and when I next need to use it. It is disappointing that the menu at the bottom of the screen, varies depending on the location of the cursor. .. Bret Busby Armadale West Australia (UTC+0800) .............. From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Tue May 27 08:43:14 2025 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (D. Hugh Redelmeier via Alpine-info) Date: Tue May 27 08:43:19 2025 Subject: [Alpine-info] Question about message composition - attaching files In-Reply-To: <77eb75b2-ccae-49e1-ad84-13e47c6ce7f0@busby.net> References: <93a74cbc-5a29-fdf7-3b32-646a8cf5f2a8@hubert-humphrey.com> <77eb75b2-ccae-49e1-ad84-13e47c6ce7f0@busby.net> Message-ID: > From: Bret Busby via Alpine-info > Also, I do not know who administers this list, but, in Thunderbird, which I am > using to compose and send this message, for some mailing lists, I have the > options "Reply to sender" and "Reply to List", but, on this list, I have only > "Reply to sender" and "Reply to all", which causes two copies of a reply to be > sent; one to the list, and, one to the sender of the message to which I am > replying. Is it possible on this list, to get the "Reply to all", replaced > with "Reply to list"? For mailing lists, "From" is screwed up to evade SPAM filtering. This is not an Alpine problem. To prevent SPAM, most mail servers have adopted a rule: only accept mail "From" an email address if the server sending it is authorized to receive mail from the domain of that email address. This breaks mailing lists: the "From" would naturally be the email address of the person who submitted to message. For example, in your messages case, bret@busby.net. But the MX record for busby.net says (only) busby.net can handle mail for you. So the mailing list program sends your message with an rewritten "From": Bret Busby via Alpine-info That's why a simple reply doesn't do what you want it to. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot at 2025-05-27 22-35-48.png Type: image/png Size: 67027 bytes Desc: URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Alpine-info mailing list Alpine-info@u.washington.edu http://mailman23.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Tue May 27 09:33:33 2025 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info) Date: Tue May 27 09:33:41 2025 Subject: [Alpine-info] Question about message composition - attaching files In-Reply-To: References: <93a74cbc-5a29-fdf7-3b32-646a8cf5f2a8@hubert-humphrey.com> <77eb75b2-ccae-49e1-ad84-13e47c6ce7f0@busby.net> <86bac20f-1023-456e-bb9d-e73e691d9e76@busby.net> <9e7eb802-62e0-c2e0-aadc-179ebb100c20@apf.it> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 2025-05-27 a las 23:38 +0800, Bret Busby via Alpine-info escribi?: > On 27/5/25 23:14, via Alpine-info wrote: >> On Tue, 27 May 2025, Bret Busby via Alpine-info wrote: > Anyway, it is solved for the moment, and, the composed message is sent, with > the attachments (but, unfortunately, without a return receipt request, which > appears to be not an available option in alpine) Send message (filtered thru "ppf_sign" as "Carlos E. R. (tesa - lists)")? D DSNOpts Y [Yes] ^P Prev Filter ^W Verbose ^R Background E Encrypt ^C Cancel N No ^N Next Filter ^V NoFlow P Priority G Sign The option appears after hittin ^X to send, it is the "DSNOpts" above. As you can see, I can paste the Alpine Window without pasting a photo ;-) > > Hopefully, I will remember how to enable the attaching of files, if and when > I next need to use it. > > It is disappointing that the menu at the bottom of the screen, varies > depending on the location of the cursor. It is a context menu, same as in GUIs :-p - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.6 (Laicolasse)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCaDXpXRwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVIQAAn3c+s20HAKQGo13477OF ipiuoC8EAJ9aicsPFeV6yAGL0J2b+rsj7infwQ== =fSN8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Tue May 27 09:45:49 2025 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Lucio Chiappetti via Alpine-info) Date: Tue May 27 09:46:03 2025 Subject: [Alpine-info] Question about message composition - attaching files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 2025, Bret Busby via Alpine-info wrote: >> In this message, I have posted a screenshot of the message Unfortunately we do not see screenshtois through the mailing list > Okay - I figured it out after all of that - the cursor needs to be in > the Attachment field of the header, then, appears as the > option to attach a file (and not to justify). Not just in the Attachment field (by default not shown if you do not call for rich header) but in any position in thr header (in the text area ctsl-J is short for "justify" ... don't know what is short for in the header, but I memorized since ages as short for "attach") When you press control-J a prompt "File to attach:" appears. You can dco it one file at a time by name, or if you type a path of a directory, WITH TRAILING SLASH and the press control-T you will be able top navigate such directroy. If you press L for list mode, you will see )(scroll down ifd there subdirectories on top) someything like [ ] b1.tmp 1.8 KB [ ] b2.tmp 1.8 KB moving to ech line and clicking the [ ] changes in [X] and multiple files can be selected. Usage of the rest of the bottom menu should be self-explanatory. If you do not put the trailing slash, or do not use a full path. you will navigate your home directory. Sometimes I forget ... -- Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Corti 12 - I-20133 Milano (Italy) For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Se si maneggiassero di pi? i libri che le armi, non si vedrebbero tante stragi, tanti misfatti e tante brutture" (Aldo Manuzio, ca. 1506) "If people would handle more books than weapons, we would not see so msny carnages, misdeeds, and awful things." (Aldus Manutius, ca. 1506) From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Tue May 27 09:49:57 2025 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info) Date: Tue May 27 09:50:04 2025 Subject: [Alpine-info] Question about message composition - attaching files In-Reply-To: References: <93a74cbc-5a29-fdf7-3b32-646a8cf5f2a8@hubert-humphrey.com> <77eb75b2-ccae-49e1-ad84-13e47c6ce7f0@busby.net> Message-ID: <04ca4cfe-7fd9-4932-efcd-660146a529c9@telefonica.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 2025-05-27 a las 11:43 -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via Alpine-info escribi?: >> From: Bret Busby via Alpine-info > >> Also, I do not know who administers this list, but, in Thunderbird, which I am >> using to compose and send this message, for some mailing lists, I have the >> options "Reply to sender" and "Reply to List", but, on this list, I have only >> "Reply to sender" and "Reply to all", which causes two copies of a reply to be >> sent; one to the list, and, one to the sender of the message to which I am >> replying. Is it possible on this list, to get the "Reply to all", replaced >> with "Reply to list"? First, have a look at the menu at the very end of the compose window: [ Note: This message contains email list management information ] Mail to list is missing, but there are some interesting entries. That said, I do get [Reply List] in Thunderbird on this list, but not on the emai copy that was sent direct to me. Only on the copy that was sent by the list server (I get the two: some mail accounts, notably gmail, delete the copy that arrives later) > For mailing lists, "From" is screwed up to evade SPAM filtering. This is > not an Alpine problem. > > To prevent SPAM, most mail servers have adopted a rule: > only accept mail "From" an email address if the server sending it is > authorized to receive mail from the domain of that email address. > > This breaks mailing lists: the "From" would naturally be the email address > of the person who submitted to message. For example, in your messages > case, bret@busby.net. But the MX record for busby.net says (only) > busby.net can handle mail for you. So the mailing list program sends > your message with an rewritten "From": > Bret Busby via Alpine-info > > That's why a simple reply doesn't do what you want it to. That's correct, but Thunderbird added a feature (maybe a decade ago?) so that when viewing an email from a mail list, this is detected and you get a context menu: [Reply][Reply list][Forward][Archive][Junk][Delete][More] Bret was wondering about the [Reply list] button not appearing on some list mail. He found the answer already, it is because that email was a copy sent directly to him by the poster when hitting "Reply to all". - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.6 (Laicolasse)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCaDXtNRwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVBwsAn2+0EqsJ4xwmXu89kWF0 kMKuKgOYAJ9fQjF2IzuuFhv20M09ji3KLgzCAQ== =GoCK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Tue May 27 09:52:09 2025 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info) Date: Tue May 27 09:52:15 2025 Subject: [Alpine-info] Question about message composition - attaching files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8ff94593-c491-9143-6ada-765aa7dc5bed@telefonica.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 2025-05-27 a las 18:45 +0200, Lucio Chiappetti via Alpine-info escribi?: > On Tue, 27 May 2025, Bret Busby via Alpine-info wrote: > >>> In this message, I have posted a screenshot of the message > > Unfortunately we do not see screenshtois through the mailing list No? I do see them. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.6 (Laicolasse)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCaDXtuRwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVqjQAn2opHWAf1WakbHs1I2hI xXwwKMzGAJ0e7NPUmLHQw0obLgeBVFvL7mMmIg== =F8Yq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Tue May 27 15:46:55 2025 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Karl Lindauer via Alpine-info) Date: Tue May 27 15:47:01 2025 Subject: [Alpine-info] Error connecting PC Alpine on a new PC Message-ID: Hi, I'm having issues with connecting PC Alpine on a new install. I have it installed on a few Windows PCs already, but this new one is failing. I connect to an MS365 account, and because of my university, I have to use the option to pretend that Alpine is actually Thunderbird. When I connect, I go through the steps, put in the inbox path I'm trying to connect to, open the XOAUTH link, wait for it to fail and then cut and paste the "localhost" URL code, like I do every few months on my other machines, but when I save the code, PC Alpine just crashes. I have no idea how to get past it. Here's the error I get in the event viewer. Faulting application name: alpine.exe, version: 2.26.0.0, time stamp: 0x6299551d Faulting module name: alpine.exe, version: 2.26.0.0, time stamp: 0x6299551d Exception code: 0xc0000409 Fault offset: 0x003ff225 Faulting process id: 0x0x528C Faulting application start time: 0x0x1DBCF580A09A69B Faulting application path: C:\Alpine\alpine.exe Faulting module path: C:\Alpine\alpine.exe Report Id: 11cf5676-4068-435e-85fe-90eb13579995 Faulting package full name: Faulting package-relative application ID: Any ideas what could be causing this, or how I can get around it? Thanks Karl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Tue May 27 22:59:10 2025 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Eduardo Chappa via Alpine-info) Date: Tue May 27 22:59:21 2025 Subject: [Alpine-info] Question about message composition - attaching files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 2025, Bret Busby via Alpine-info wrote: > Hello. > > I have a memory that, in pine, a hotkey combination was available for > attaching files to a message being composed, but, in this version of > alpine that I have; 2.25, running on Linux Mint Mate 21.3 - a derivative > of Ubuntu Linux 22.04, I cannot find how to attach a file to a message > that I am composing. if you place the cursor in the headers section, and press ctrl-j, you will be able to attach a file. > It is not in the menu at the bottom of the screen, when you place the cursor on the headers section the ctrl-j command appears. > and, previously, an option existed for displaying other available > commands, and, that option is also not shown in the menu at the bottom > of the compose message screen; and, I have also searched in the Help > facility within alpine 2.25, and, cannot find how to attach a file to a > message being composed. here you got me. i do not know of a way to do that within the composer. there is no 'others' commands in that screen while composing a message. of course there is one in other screens, not the composer screen. > Has the ability to attach a file to a message being composed, been > removed from alpine? not at all. -- eduardo